Festergut

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Festergut

Post  Gevlon on Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:59 pm

As we know, Festergut is mathematically impossible with the standard 2 tanks, 3 healers 5 DPS setup assuming our gear.

I see three ways to increase DPS:
1: tank-DPS combo. The standard rotation is tank gathers 9 stacks, other taunts, the old tank is DPS-ing with 9 stacks another 100 secs (giving 90% DPS bonus).

My modified plan is that first tank tank gathers 8 stacks, other taunts. This tank will DPS with 8 stacks for 96 secs and taunts again for one more stack. The second tank is a paladin, bubbles to clear his stacks and taunts back. So the first tank will DPS another 100 secs with 9 stacks. He will spend practically the whole fight in +80-90% damage bonus. But the big move is that this tank never get tanks 3 inhales. He tanks 2 inhales phase once. So this tank can give up much tanking talents, and practically be an uncrittable plate DPS. He uses cooldown on the 2 inhales but otherwise it's walking in the park for him. Plate DPS with +80-90% damage bonus? Yes please


2: The only movement in the fight is the spore run. Mage and shadow priest can completely bypass spores by using ice block (possibly invisibility) and dispersion. Demo warlock can live with 2 spores due to SL + shadow ward. So placing such people to ranged, we can ignore spores. The warlock is in the middle, running to left or right to gather some spores. The only problem if both the spores are outside, this case one has to run in. The other problem if there are more than one 2x inside, than one has to run out to save the lock. Yet it's significantly decreased movement.

3: healer/DPS combo like restokin. DPS-es 0 and 1 inhales, heals 2 and 3.

This way we can have 1.5 tank, 2.5 healers, 6 DPS, no movement.

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Re: Festergut

Post  Azeulisse on Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:43 am

we can use druid as tank/dps. Almost same talents, agility gear is quite good for tanking (and buff takes care of stamina), also druid has some cooldowns to use during first inhale (frenzied regen, survival instinct, barkskin).

priest healers can contribute some dps, dots + shadowfiend. Maybe raid healing priest could try healing with glyphed holy nova while standing on boss (sadly, that would heal just one group).

According to math, how much extra damage do we need to do?

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Re: Festergut

Post  Ulatekso on Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:58 pm

Not too sure on the exact math. With 5 DPS doing 5000, and tanks doing 3000 each, we'd barely make the timer. I believe we're getting 25% buff this week, which should make 5000 from all our DPS a possibility. I managed 4.8 a few weeks ago on our single attempt over three minutes or so. I could do a little better than that (didn't use potions and optimal food/elixir for starters) so this figure should be in reach for all of us, barring severe class imbalances at lower gear levels or something. If we can pull off any of the tricks Gevlon mentioned we'll make the cut for sure.

Gevlon wrote:
1: tank-DPS combo. The standard rotation is tank gathers 9 stacks, other taunts, the old tank is DPS-ing with 9 stacks another 100 secs (giving 90% DPS bonus).

My modified plan is that first tank tank gathers 8 stacks, other taunts. This tank will DPS with 8 stacks for 96 secs and taunts again for one more stack. The second tank is a paladin, bubbles to clear his stacks and taunts back. So the first tank will DPS another 100 secs with 9 stacks. He will spend practically the whole fight in +80-90% damage bonus. But the big move is that this tank never get tanks 3 inhales. He tanks 2 inhales phase once. So this tank can give up much tanking talents, and practically be an uncrittable plate DPS. He uses cooldown on the 2 inhales but otherwise it's walking in the park for him. Plate DPS with +80-90% damage bonus? Yes please
Sounds good. I'm not sure if using bubble clears the stacks though. Worth a try for sure. One of the commenters also suggested having an actual plate DPS go in as first tank using CDs and grabbing a stack. Might be worthwhile, and shouldn't interfere with tanking later on during the fight.

2: The only movement in the fight is the spore run. Mage and shadow priest can completely bypass spores by using ice block (possibly invisibility) and dispersion. Demo warlock can live with 2 spores due to SL + shadow ward. So placing such people to ranged, we can ignore spores. The warlock is in the middle, running to left or right to gather some spores. The only problem if both the spores are outside, this case one has to run in. The other problem if there are more than one 2x inside, than one has to run out to save the lock. Yet it's significantly decreased movement.
There's plenty of time to get to the spored person, as you only need to be about 15 yards away from eachother to not chain the Vile Gas (the random ranged target disorient) to eachother. If the melee and healers stack up directly underneath Festergut, you can be awfully close to Festergut as well.

If two ranged get spored, one of them can probably shuffle into melee range while on GCD from instant cast spells, as to not lose or minimise DPS loss. Likewise for shuffling to fellow ranged DPS. As a Hunter I cannot go into melee without losing DPS obviously, but I can move at range without losing any if I'm careful. If two melee get spored, well, at least one of them won't have to run that far if the ranged are close. If we make sure that spore dependant ranged DPS are closest to Fester, he might even be able to still take melee swings at him (since Fester grows larger as he inhales, and his hitbox increases in size).

Fester won't use Vile Gas directly after spores, so similarly you can take your time getting out of eachother's hair as well. Having an immunity for the big AoE is nice but don't overestimate it, as you also lose some DPS to having to use Ice Block or Dispersion (one GCD if your timing is mega-awesome, probably more) or Invisibility (four seconds, three sec fade out and fade in also costs some time). Individual DPS output should also be considered.

In addition, if healing proves doable, one healer could go ranged and one ranged DPS could go melee. That way the healer at ranged might soak some Vile Gas instead of a range DPS, upping DPS slightly.


One last thing that is also worth mentioning, plan your cooldowns in advance. The fight lasts almost exactly five minutes. As soon as we hit the five-minute mark, Fester goes berserk and his pulsing AoE will oneshot the entire raid. Try to plan your cooldowns such that you have as much overlap as possible.

In my case, I'd prepot (if your AH had speed pots, anyway...) and then hit everything I've got as soon as heroism goes off a few seconds into the fight. At around the two minute mark I'll wait for Whetstone to proc and use my 2-minute trinket again. At around the four minute mark I'll again wait for Whetstone proc and use my 2-minute trinket and also Berserking which will be ready again. I could chug another Potion of Speed at this point as well, but Rawr claims that using a mana potion is better (less time in Viper).

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Re: Festergut

Post  Ulatekso on Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:22 pm

Also, some probability tidbits. The people who get a spore are, to my knowledge, chosen completely randomly, with even the MT being a viable target for it.

During the fight, there will be six relevant spore handouts. There will more after the second big AoE, but since we won't live to see a third one, those are irrelevant and can be ignored.

Odds of getting double ranged spore would be, assuming three people at range, 3/10 * 2/9 = 6.67%. If this happens, the most mobile one should move in. If somebody can move while putting up instant spells, then great. If not, well, blink gets you in range at the cost of one GCD, for example. At any rate, if this happens we may consider ourselves unlucky. The odds of this not occuring during the relevant six spore handouts are (1 - 0.067)^6 = ~66%

Odds of getting a double melee spore would be 7/10 * 6/9 = 46.67%. We can almost count on this happening more than once during a given fight. Since all melee are roughly equal mobility-wise, it'd probably be best to say that in this case the skull mark stays in melee and the cross mark goes ranged (assuming DBM marks here). If the MT gets the cross mark, that's easy enough to spot. If it turns out that the debuff-hogging OT is doing significantly more damage than any DPS (and cannot DPS Festergut from the ranged rally point), we could make an exception for that as well.

Ranged should position themselves in a triangle. At the top of the triangle would be a ranged DPS who cannot move without losing any DPS. He'll be the rally point for the ranged spore, and he'll be as close to Festergut as possible without chaining Vile Gas to the melee group. The melee player will only have to move a little bit out and back in, and might even be able to still swing at the boss. If other ranged DPS get a spore they can move to him (if at all needed), losing no or at the very least less DPS than the static player would due to greater mobility. Think that's about the optimal way of handling it.

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Re: Festergut

Post  Gevlon on Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:00 pm

That's exactly why I want to skip movement. By having AoE immune people outside, we can DPS constantly. Since double-melee spore is almost sure, we surely save at least one runout, but rather 2. The melee cannot do damage at all, losing lot. Even by having 2 immune + 1 warlock we save 1 runout.

The question is what is bigger? Runout loss or vomit lost. Classes with dots or pets can make damage while vomiting. The 3 people outside will get several 6-secs lockout. If it's longer than runout time, than having (BM) hunter, demo lock, affly lock, restodruid outside is preferred. We will test it properly.

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Re: Festergut

Post  Ulatekso on Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:51 pm

On average, DoT-based DPS classes aren't better off outside. For example, a Warlock will sometimes get the six-second debuff when he has all his dots running and is spamming Shadowbolt, which is favourable, but sometimes he'll get the debuff when his dots are just about to run out, which will cost him far more dps.

The pet bit is true, those classes will lose slightly less DPS to the disorient. According to Rawr, Survival will do 700 DPS over BM even with the most favourable conditions for BM (Sunder Armor, 5% Crit, 4% Physical Damage debuffs, which we will like lack), so going BM will most likely not be worthwhile.

That said, if you have a full complement of ranged DPS who can each cancel one or both big AoE attacks through cooldowns without taking any spores, it will probably be worth taking them. It essentially turns the fight into Patchwerk as there is no movement needed. However, this will require three (mages or shadow priests), so I guess it depends on Baitra being there.

As soon as you have one person at ranged who requires spores, it doesn't really matter anymore, though. With two spores, the big AoE does a maximum of 22500 damage. Between our buffs and the ICC 20% buff I think most ranged DPS will be over this. I had close to 27000 HP on Valithria, for example. Plus, since there's only three people at ranged, having them receive some attention from healers right after the big AoE won't be an issue.

As for the runout time itself, it probably isn't that bad. When you receive the spore debuff you have twelve seconds to get into position, the closest ranged DPS will ideally be about 15 to 20 yards away, and the spore burst radius is 8 yards. With proper raid positioning you'd only have to move for like two seconds to get where you should be, and then two seconds to get back in. This'll require some practice though, no doubt.

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Re: Festergut

Post  Azeulisse on Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:07 pm

Using all healers on range is not an option?

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Re: Festergut

Post  Ulatekso on Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:51 pm

Azeulisse wrote:Using all healers on range is not an option?
Having the wrong healer get a disorient during P2 or P3 (such as a paladin who is continuously healbombing the MT) might not be recoverable. We could try it, should it be needed, but first I'd say we should focus on making it to the 5-minute berserk mark alive.

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Re: Festergut

Post  Azeulisse on Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:11 am

Ah, if people dying is problem, then healers on range won't work that well. Which part is problem - no inhales (raid damage) or 3 inhales (tank damage) ?

In such case, maybe shadow damage reduction (I think the aoe aura is shadow) can help. And with good healer combination, maybe we could two-heal it. It was two healable with ilvl232 gear, just after release, the buff can maybe compensate it. I was thinking about something like cloak enchant + head enchant + flask.

Anyone knows if it is possible to obtain nightmare seeds on AH?

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Re: Festergut

Post  Ulatekso on Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:55 am

It's a bit hard to judge from just one attempt, but raid damage seemed to be handled fairly well until we lost our paladin healer to a mistake on the big AoE. The static incoming damage from the aura seemed easy enough to handle, and the only thing that puts people at risk of dying is the added damage burst from spores or vile gas on top of it, and both of those are "plague" damage, which can't be mitigated through shadow resist alone. Regardless, between Beacon of Light, Judgement of Light and some solid AoE healing, the first two phases should be two-healable.

Tank health was definitly jumping all over the place, though. Don't know if two-healing it during two and three inhales will be viable, and frankly I'd rather stick with three. And apparently so does Gevlon, hence the suggestion of using some healer/dps hybrid.

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Re: Festergut

Post  Azeulisse on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:34 am

Took a quick glance at WoL, it seems that maladroite had bit above 9k DTPS. The healers had 4,5k 4,3k and 3,5k hps. This is log I found:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/aba0kwoygu7dukf4/?s=8772&e=8951

These numbers alone indicate it is not viable, but I noticed several things when I checked koushirou and triev:
- no tranquility
- PI used on Koltas (just once), this one can be used on healer in 2 healer situation
- no pain suppression on three inhales
- maladroite can reenchant cloak to armor and gloves to armor (enchant from TBC).

I did not check warrior and paladin skill usage, so I can't comment on those. I think that some hunter pet is able to provide mitigation cooldown as well.

Even if we go with pure dps, everyone should have a "coodown and proc plan", like Ulaetsuko posted earlier.

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Re: Festergut

Post  Ulatekso on Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:31 pm

Only hunter pet mitigation I can think of is Carrion Bird screech (which doesn't stack with Demo Shout et all), Roar of Sacrifice (grants crit immunity, useless in PvE) and Intervene (which absorbs one hit at the cost of a dead pet which already does suboptimal DPS while alive).

Do keep in mind that we only had one attempt. With proper healing assignments (for example, during 0-inhale and 1-inhale have a Paladin heal MT and the three ranged through beacon, with second healer keeping up the melee camp and spot-healing Vile Gas) we'd probably increase individual output.

Regardless, it's hard to speculate about individual output in pure numbers. We'll have to wait and see how hard everyone can push their limited. I'd still suggest starting out with a full complement of healers (which makes getting in tune with the encounter that much easier), and then slowly throttling down if it turns out we can't make the berserk timer.

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Re: Festergut

Post  Chopsui on Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:57 pm

Time to mix into the discussion.

One thing that might be worth considering regardless of all other things, is to equip the PVP trinket for those at range. You can clear vile gas with it. Considering it will reduce damage done to you, and increase dps time it might be worth it. DPSing for 5 extra seconds @ 4k dps will mean 20k extra damage. Of course you would lose the overall added damage from the trinket you replace.

Prepotting will be worth gold here.

Aura Mastery + Shadow Aura will help a *lot* on raiddamage on the big AE.

If indeed we can use CDs to avoid having melee run out, that will provide a lot of extra damage done as well.

I can probably take festergut for his first 1 or more stacks of dps increase. I'd have Boneshield up when running in, can repop it after it expires (both 20% damage reduction for 3 hits each), and icebound fortitude (-30% damage reduction). Can put up frost aura temporarily (-8% damage reduction and 60% extra armor from plate, at the cost of 15% damage done).

Another way of doing this could be timing it. As Bloat has a 15 second cooldown (and timer on DBM) what we could do is I run in with boneshield up and take the first one, then real tank grabs him until cooldown is up, I taunt him back for the Bloat with IBF or boneshield again, until I run out of CDs or fester has too much +damage buffs. Anti Magic Shield should reduce the incoming damage from the Bloat as well.

All in all, I ran at 4.8k dps back then and leveled engineering now to get rid of that pesky mining I still had, with these debuffs, my dps should be quite a bit higher. Of course, I could also instasplut from a crit from him since I am not uncrittable. All in all though, I do think we should try a go or two in regular tactics and see how much we are short. There's no point in doing all kinds of risky tactics from the start, as every added risk adds a chance of failure.

Of course the tanks themselves should bring a big fat 2h to wield when they are not tanking festergut.

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Re: Festergut

Post  Ulatekso on Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:48 pm

Chopsui wrote:One thing that might be worth considering regardless of all other things, is to equip the PVP trinket for those at range. You can clear vile gas with it. Considering it will reduce damage done to you, and increase dps time it might be worth it. DPSing for 5 extra seconds @ 4k dps will mean 20k extra damage. Of course you would lose the overall added damage from the trinket you replace.
You could probably clear two, maybe three. Considering the relatively low value of blue trinkets this is actually a very good idea. Edit: according to Wowhead comments it does work.

Edit: napkin math shows that this would almost always be a damage improvement if it does work. My weakest trinket adds 101 DPS, so over 300 seconds I'd lose 30300 damage by not wearing it. Vile Gas lasts six seconds (not five), and getting to remove it twice is quite likely. The level 70 2-minute trinket costs only 8000 honor.

Aura Mastery + Shadow Aura will help a *lot* on raiddamage on the big AE.
I believe it's not resistable. The AoE deals a little over 10000 damage with three stacks, though so it's almost trivial to survive. With priest shields even the squishiest ranged DPS could take the big AoE with only two stacks of spores. The AoE won't be a problem. Only the rather abrubt switch from massive tank damage to steady tank + raid damage might need a bit of getting used to, but I'm fairly sure that this issue won't make or break our ability to kill Fester.

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Re: Festergut

Post  Chopsui on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:32 pm

Ulatekso wrote:
Chopsui wrote:One thing that might be worth considering regardless of all other things, is to equip the PVP trinket for those at range. You can clear vile gas with it. Considering it will reduce damage done to you, and increase dps time it might be worth it. DPSing for 5 extra seconds @ 4k dps will mean 20k extra damage. Of course you would lose the overall added damage from the trinket you replace.
You could probably clear two, maybe three. Considering the relatively low value of blue trinkets this is actually a very good idea. Edit: according to Wowhead comments it does work.



Edit: napkin math shows that this would almost always be a damage improvement if it does work. My weakest trinket adds 101 DPS, so over 300 seconds I'd lose 30300 damage by not wearing it. Vile Gas lasts six seconds (not five), and getting to remove it twice is quite likely. The level 70 2-minute trinket costs only 8000 honor.


It works. I raid as a human mage on my main, and Every man for himself definitely works to clear it. PVP trinket should work, and as you said it does according to wowhead comments. I counted 5 seconds to factor in reaction time.


Ulatekso wrote:
Aura Mastery + Shadow Aura will help a *lot* on raiddamage on the big AE.
I believe it's not resistable. The AoE deals a little over 10000 damage with three stacks, though so it's almost trivial to survive. With priest shields even the squishiest ranged DPS could take the big AoE with only two stacks of spores. The AoE won't be a problem. Only the rather abrubt switch from massive tank damage to steady tank + raid damage might need a bit of getting used to, but I'm fairly sure that this issue won't make or break our ability to kill Fester.

You are right. I just remember what was called out (there's that pesky voice communication for you Wink ) on our festergut kills. The auramastery helps out with the AE damage *after* the pungent blight. There was something about divine sacrifice too, but I cannot check that out at this moment.

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Re: Festergut

Post  Ulatekso on Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:29 am

Well, DSac seemed to help nicely. Even made surviving two-stack AoE a breeze.

I've uploaded our 5%-wipe here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Botv6gEGtKY

Edit:
Below is some numbers I tried to write down before saturday's raid but didn't quite finish. Was almost done so might as well finish writing it down with yesterday's tanks plugged in, it might help out next week if the 5% buff doesn't turn out to be enough on its own.

With regards to our DPS, we'd need to have done another 500.000 damage to turn that 5% wipe into a safe kill. With Fire Elementals reportedly doing 850 DPS with a total uptime of four minutes, that'd add 204.000 damage, 296.000 to go.

Our melee DPS seemed to hover around the 4500 mark. For each debuff they'd manage to steal from Festergut, they'd gain 450 DPS for 100 seconds, or 45000 damage. However, the tanks would end up losing a stack, in the end. Assuming they produce a baseline DPS of 2000, they'd lose 200 DPS over 100 seconds, or 20000 damage. So every debuff stack we get onto a melee DPS would gain us at most 25000 damage. We'd need twelve of such boosts to make the timer, so this alone won't be viable. In addition, it'll delay tank swaps which may cause some issues.


In our attempt where we wiped at 5%, we had a total of 27 debuff applications. Of these, 18 were put on Triev, and nine on Manahog. The fight takes about 300 seconds, so there's about 11 seconds between debuff applications. Let's give Manahog a baseline DPS of 2000 and Triev one of 2000 as bear and 3000 as cat.

Triev would spend ~100 seconds collecting debuffs, 100 seconds as cat-dps, and the remaining ~100 seconds collecting debuffs again. While collecting debuffs you spend an equal time with 0, 1, ..., 8 stacks for an average buff of 40%. So, he'd spend 200 seconds doing 2800 DPS as bear, and 100 seconds doing 5700 DPS as cat, for a total of 1.113.000 damage.

Manahog would spend 100 seconds offtanking without any stacks, 100 seconds collecting, and the remaining 100 dpsing. He'd do 2000 DPS over the first period, 2800 DPS over the second period, and 3800 DPS over the third period, for a total of 860.000 damage. Together, our tanks would account for 1.973.000 damage.

If we go with our alternate sequence, where Triev takes 8 stacks, does DPS, then takes 9 stacks and going DPS again, things would change. Triev would spend 90 seconds collecting 8 debuffs (35% boost average, so 2700 DPS), 90 seconds doing cat DPS with 80% boost, 10 seconds tanking with 80% boost, 100 seconds doing cat DPS with 90% boost, and the remaining 10 seconds tanking without debuffs, for a total of 1.355.000 damage.

Manahog spends 90 seconds offtanking without stacks, 90 seconds collecting 8 debuffs, 10 seconds offtanking with 8 debuffs, bubble to clear, 100 seconds collecting 9 stacks, and the remaining 10 seconds dpsing with 90% boost, for a total of 777.000 damage. Together, our tanks would do 2.132.000 damage, and improvement of 159.000 over the default setup. This still puts us 137000 damage short, though the stronger our kitten DPS becomes the higher the amount of DPS we gain through this becomes.

But yeah, in addition to honing tactics we'd need to rely on the ever vague "need to play better" to make the timer which is unfortunate. It should be in the bag without too much headache with the next step of the ICC buff, though.

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Re: Festergut

Post  Chopsui on Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:28 am

Buff is now at 25%. That should mean he dies without resorting to very exotic tactics. Nice in a way, a bit sad in another. We would probably still need to crank out a tad more dps, but that will happen with a few more tries and or fire elem totems.

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Re: Festergut

Post  Gevlon on Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:17 pm

One thing hunters: a commenter was right that ICC ammo needs ICC rep that needs ICC farming. So no more ICC ammos please, use the blue one!

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Re: Festergut

Post  Ulatekso on Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:57 pm

Video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnVKNyEkv78

In addition I might not make it next week as my PC's main board seems to have been incinerated.

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Re: Festergut

Post  ardoRic on Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:31 am

Ulatekso wrote:In addition I might not make it next week as my PC's main board seems to have been incinerated.

The Cult of Festergut punishes you for your top dps on their deity.

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Re: Festergut

Post  Maladroite on Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:22 pm

Well I'm hoping that I can come for the next raidnight, depends if I'll have an internet connection at my new apartment by then.
Great job on Festergut!

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Re: Festergut

Post  jukido on Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:07 pm

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