Sartharion+1

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Sartharion+1

Post  Gevlon on Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:30 pm

While Sarth+2 seems doable, it needs a perfect raid composition, that we don't have currently. We have to raid with whatever who have online, lacking buffs, debuffs.

So let's just do Sarth+Tenebron.

Tenebron is the whelp add summoner. The whelps can be killed as eggs (25K HP, 6 of them, 20 secs hatch time) but they are in the portal, where everyone gets 1K shadow damage every sec. So the first decision is: let them hatch and be tanked despite they decrease tank armor by 1500*10, or all DPS jump to portal with one healer, nuke eggs, run out.

Tenebron also provides +100% shadow damage debuff (making the egg DPS 2000/player), and also doubling her own shadow breath damage 7K to 14K. Due to hard mode, has +25% HP, as well as Sartharion. Must be killed before Sarth or Sarth enrages at 35%

We still have Sartharion (big, ugly, cleaving, tail sweeping, fire breathing dragon), and the lava blazes (little fire elementals).

So the strat seem to be:
* handle whelps (either as eggs or tanked whelps)
* handle blazes (kill them when too many)
* don't die in fire walls
* kill Tenebron
* kill Sartharion

This means that 3 or 4 things needs to be tanked: Tenebron, Sartharion, whelps, blazes. The 2 dragons must have their own tanks, as they cannot be moved or breath/cleave/sweep the raid, so their tank can't run to pick up adds. So the second decision is what tank to be used. The choices are: normal, player tanks to both, or pet. Pets have lower HP, little avoidance, little armor, but more or less immune to lava waves and fire breath. Since we kill Tenebron first, a pet could tank Sarth as have to hold aggro only against healers. This would allow us to use 1 more DPS (having only 1 tank for Tenebron), or 2 tanks and forget the eggs (tanked whelps can be AoE-d quickly).

The lava blazes are just spawning and spawning, usually wiping PuGs by killing healers. If they hit by lava wave, they enrage. Must be tanked too. However they hit with fire, instead of melee, so armor does not play here. My idea is tanking them myself. With this talent, and some gear replacement to fire res, I can easily reach 4-600 fire res decreasing their effective damage to 35-40%. I'd collect them with arcane barrage and tank them with arcane explosion/cone of cold. Of course replenishment is a must be to keep up with mana. After enough are collected, and the aggro is built, they can be AoE-d down by the raid. The third question is shall I tank them, or a real tank collects some fire res greens to have them. A tank have easier to build aggro, but harder to have resistances (I have 140 just from talents, stacking with aura and gear). I can also move freely to drag them out of the waves as my AoE is 360, so don't have to turn to cleave them.

Please post your ideas.

Gevlon
Greedy Goblin
Greedy Goblin

Posts : 52
Join date : 2009-12-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Sartharion+1

Post  Gevlon on Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:31 pm

Funny thing: the commenters believe we'll go Sarth+3. I won't correct them, let them make some buzz.

Gevlon
Greedy Goblin
Greedy Goblin

Posts : 52
Join date : 2009-12-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Sartharion+1

Post  Ulatekso on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:19 pm

Sartharion himself doesn't do a whole lot of damage when only Tenebron is up. The reason he's taken on by a single tank on higher difficulties is the huge spikey flame breaths he does due to all the fire damage increases floating around. I think that even for our blue-geared tanks it will be perfectly viable to tank both Sarth and Tenebron. The highest incoming damage spike will be a 11,250 breath from Sartharion and a 16,132 breath from Tenebron, which adds up to a little over 27,000 damage (this is the absolute top end value). Tanks will mitigate some of that through passive abilities and talents, and another 10% to 30% will be covered by appropriate resistance buffs.

While I assume that it won't be a problem, Tenebron's increased shadow damage aura also pushes voidzone damage into the one-shot range for some classes.

The lava blazes do indeed deal fire damage, but their swings can be dodged, parried and blocked. Given the tiny amount of damage their swings do, even a block would most likely mitigate an entire swing. In addition, something like a Shockwave would completely stop incoming damage for a few seconds since all adds are stunnable. Also, since someone will have to tank Tenebron's whelps (never found going into the realm to DPS eggs viable), it might as well be the blaze tank, as the armor reduction is of no consequence. In addition we get the added benefit of AoE'ing both the whelps and the blazes down at once.

Ulatekso

Posts : 25
Join date : 2009-12-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Sartharion+1

Post  ardoRic on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:29 pm

I may have inadvertently started that OS + 3D idea... oh well.

I know I won't be able to make it to this raid,since my shammy is still level 15, but I'd like to contribute with some discussion nonetheless.

Sarth + Tenebron isn't a dps race. We don't have to rush to kill any dragon, we just have to live through Tenebron and then proceed to kill Sartharion.

That being said, I don't think it's a bad idea to overflow on healers and tanks, if they are available. Taking 3 tanks and 3 healers will make dps kinda slow, but it probably provides the best chances of success. If I remember correctly from healing Sarth + Tenebron on my druid with Naxx gear, the major race will be against the healers' mana pool.

With so little dps, I wouldn't advise going into the portals. You'd need great uptime on the aoe on the eggs and that means insta-port which might not be an option during a flame wall. My best bet for handling the whelps is having a tank pick them up and AoE them fast so dps can go back to Tenebron.

Since armor isn't an issue tanking the Blazes, the whelp tank could also pick these up in his spare time. Maybe have a dedicated dps to manage Blazes wouldn't be a bad idea, either. If you can have a hunter or, better yet, a rogue for removing the occasional enrage it would be even more efficient.

Avoiding damage is of the utmost importance, so don't get hit by lava walls, don't stand in void zones (you forgot those?), and don't start dps before tanks have solid threat so you don't pull unwanted aggro. All going well, the only damage non-tanks should be taking is the occasional meteor, which should be easily healable.

Good luck.

ardoRic

Posts : 11
Join date : 2010-02-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Sartharion+1

Post  Azeulisse on Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:58 pm

I agree with 3 tanks 3 healers 4 dps setup. Maybe 3 tanks, 2 healers 5 dps, as I think the 3rd healer won't have much to do.

The two tanks that tank dragons don't take much damage. It might be possible to solo-tank them, but the extra dps will not help us much.

Azeulisse

Posts : 8
Join date : 2009-12-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Sartharion+1

Post  Gevlon on Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:36 am

It's nice you all say 3 tanks, except we don't have 3 tanks.

Gevlon
Greedy Goblin
Greedy Goblin

Posts : 52
Join date : 2009-12-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Sartharion+1

Post  ardoRic on Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:02 pm

Not being able to afford 3 tanks is in fact an issue. On this case I imagine you*'ll have to really try things out and see how it works.

I dunno how viable it is to have a pet tank. You thinking about a lock or a hunter pet? Hunter pets can be specced (specially if the hunter is BM) to have quite a lot of survivability and even magical resistances. Maybe something like [1].

Pets, however, will most likely prove to be a mana sponge for your healers, and might be particularly hard to position. But it would allow two tanks to be on whelps + tenebron.

The other option would be to have a tank on both Tenebron and Sartharion, which with a bad timing on account of breaths might lead to insta-gibs. I suggest trying this if you have a DK. This is due to Anti-Magic Shell and it's awesomeness.

I really don't think not having a proper tank for whelps is viable, since only a tank would be able to pick them up, have sufficient aggro and survive for long enough that kind of a beating. This tank, should also always take up the Blazes.

While the idea for a mage tanking Blazes with resistances doesn't look very bad, there is an issue which might screw this over really quick: dazes. A non crit-immune tank will be subject to dazes which are very deadly, specially in a fight where moving well and fast is so important as in Sarth. Also, if the fight takes too long you run with the serious risk of going oom and not being able to handle the Blazes effectively.



* I say "you" cause I'm still a bit far from raiding for the project

[1] http://www.wowhead.com/?petcalc#Mc0G0rMzf0oM (any tenacity pet would do, but turtles have that extra Shell ability, which is nice for survival)

ardoRic

Posts : 11
Join date : 2010-02-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Sartharion+1

Post  Suma on Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:35 pm

I think we used 2 tanks when doing this long time ago. OT took Tenebron and all the adds.

We have a rogue and a hunter who can help with gathering all the adds to the OT with TotT and MD, for easy AoE.

Suma

Posts : 5
Join date : 2009-12-30

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Sartharion+1

Post  Ulatekso on Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:07 pm

I would not consider pets viable for tanking. They are indeed a huge mana sponge, and the only reason people even considered using pets was because they eliminated a huge problem on Sarth+3D: tank gibs from 50k+ breaths (pets take 90% reduced damage from AoE). Since we are leaving Shadron and Vesperon (and their acolytes) out of the equation, badass flame breaths will not bother us.

Do not consider a pet a "free" tank, either. The pet owner will have to make significant sacrifices to his personal DPS to make his pet a viable tank.

Should sufficient aggro redirection be available I am inclined to believe that Suma's suggestion would work nicely. Blazing Flame spawns are few in 10-man and can likely be picked up by taunts from either the Tenebron or Sarth tanks, and TotT/MD should be able to redirect all the whelps onto either the Tenebron or Sarth tank because they spawn in one huge clump. Neither boss hits very hard, so the risk of death to the armor reduction debuff is small. That said, damage might still be spikey, so there is no clear advantage over using one tank to tank both dragon.

Somebody mentioned tank one-shots in an earlier post, but I already gave numbers, it won't happen. Absolute worst-case raw damage in one big spike is around 27000 (assuming the dedicated add tank does indeed tank all adds), and this is before resistances (between 10% to 30% should we have appropriate 130 buffs, and between 0% to 20% otherwise) and damage reduction through talents (for example, Warriors take 16% less damage from magic attacks thanks to Defensive Stance and the Improved Defensive Stance talent).


Last edited by Ulatekso on Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

Ulatekso

Posts : 25
Join date : 2009-12-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Sartharion+1

Post  gnomeofzurich on Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:09 pm

this is how I remember doing sarth+1 also with 2 tanks. Tenebron just needs to be tanked on top of the portal when it comes out, and the whelps will get picked up.

Plate (or cat temporarily in bear for) dps can round up the blazes and bring them to the tenebron tank, or you can use rogues/hunters for this as the Suma suggests. I prefer plate/cat because the blazes spawn throughout the fight. But as noted, you do not need a real tank to tank them. Certainly there is no need for full resist gear on the blaze tank, anybody with reasonably high HP (or good resist) and good aoe skills can do the job, and an arcane mage might actually be a pretty good choice.

gnomeofzurich
US Moderator
US Moderator

Posts : 40
Join date : 2009-12-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Sartharion+1

Post  Gevlon on Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:34 pm

Blazes hit by magic, so plate or bear form doesn't help. However can be misdirected and it's viable that I pick them up and carry to the tank (160 FR just from talents/mage armor). Dazes are not a problem as I have blink.

Tenebron tank can also use +50 res all flask instead of health to decrease load on healer mana (Tenebron do shadow breath and also shadow void zone, hard to spot if you are tanking a zillion blazes). Sarth tank may use some plate fire res green or fire res head enchant.

It's also true that hunters give up lot of DPS for tank talent, but non-tank pets die very quickly at Sarth, since the flame wall is NOT an AoE, but just apply a fire dot and avoidance does not help.

It's also possible that we'll have a third tank ready, trivializing the fight.

I guess we'll wipe some times before we can clear it, but that's why a whole raid is dedicated to Sarth.

Gevlon
Greedy Goblin
Greedy Goblin

Posts : 52
Join date : 2009-12-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Sartharion+1

Post  Chopsui on Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:16 pm

What I learned from Sarth+1 (which I hadn't done properly before, funnily enough) was that AE threat in Undergeared-EU is a bit of a problem at the moment. Whelps were slightly all over the place, and while they don't hit hard, they did kill 1-2 on the first attempt, and again 1-2 on the second one. We had 2 DK tanks and as far as I know just using DND and Pestilenced Diseases should keep them on you, along with the AE abilities frost has. Just curious what caused the loss of aggro...

Chopsui

Posts : 19
Join date : 2009-12-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Sartharion+1

Post  Suma on Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:22 pm

DK's generally have the slowest rampup time on AoE of the tanks, might be one contributing reason.

Suma

Posts : 5
Join date : 2009-12-30

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Sartharion+1

Post  Gevlon on Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:05 am

Next time when quick heavy AoE is needed, I'll spec for Prismatic Cloak 3/3, so I can drop instant aggro. The problem was that we had no rogues or hunters who could AoE instantly without risk.

Gevlon
Greedy Goblin
Greedy Goblin

Posts : 52
Join date : 2009-12-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Sartharion+1

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum