Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

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Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

Post  Kats on Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:29 am

I understand the reasons for not using them. They're epic and they don't belong. Simple, right?

Ok, Well I have a counter-argument.

Here we go:

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=11824375416&sid=1&pageNo=1
"Kick out option is a mistake" Says Zharyna of the guild Small Gods on Ravencrest EU. Reading the post I might have sympathized a bit with the newly-dinged level 80.

That is, until I went to Armory.
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=11824375416&sid=1&pageNo=1
Shockhorror, a huntard with 'epic' spellpower bracers (maybe he needs the intellect) and green TBC gems. And... surprise, not even the most basic of enchants. It was worse prior to this, having had a str/expertise green ring and some other random crap.

Ok, idiots pop up on the forums all the time, so what makes it so special? Maybe it's the 15+ pages of replies? Maybe it's the BLUE TAG that sympathizes with her/his plight? Maybe it's the people that actually DEFEND this kind of entitled behaviour? Who knows? (I was unpleasantly surprised to notice that even great posting names such as Talen from the realm Vek'Nilash whom I have known and had respect for his reasonable and argumented posting on the Paladin forums in TBC have stooped so low as to defend this kind of behaviour and welfare entitlement.)

Ok so how does this all tie in? Well, one of the foremost arguments in that thread was that "Go read a rotation, some theorycrafting, get some craftables, enchant it with enchants and put gems in them."

As always, the selective power of idiots is astounding. Here's how that phrase actually reads in their minds: "LOL m8 go get soem gemz n cheep enchants, noob." No reading theorycraft, no rotation practicing, nothing. Am I right? Right.

Ok, so, the point is, IF we are going to have any success with this project then we'll get attention. If we get attention, then we'll get the idiot's attention too. If we do, what will they understand. :"LOl some guld of undergeered peepz cleared ICC 25 so is ez. I can slack more now, show up in blues and empty sockets and in white TBC gems. kkk? OMG HOW DARE YOU KICK ME FROM HERROIC UK FOR DOING 300 DpS? Catch with the times, noob group, it can be cleared like that!"

I am willing to bet that somewhere, someone will understand our project like that. NEVER mind that it will have taken a lot of theorycraft and preparation. Selective reading and understanding at its finest.

So, what do we do? Well, one solution would be getting the absolutely top-of-the-line epic gems and enchants. The difference between them and their blue counterparts is not huge. We know that. But top-end gems and enchants have a 'social' component to them. (I'm going to get roasted now for sure for even daring to argue this.) Top end gems and enchants show the willingness to prepare beyond what the average Joe is willing to commit.

In essence, the gems and enchants are the 'visible' part of raid preparation, as opposed to theorycraft and dummy practice, which for all purposes are invisible.

In light of this, no idiot anywhere ever can justify to his group the lack of enchants and gems (and by extension, preparation), by pointing to us.

Ok, so why should we care? Well apart from my personal hatred of strawman argumentation (which is what the abovementioned M&S line of thought is), there are a few more reasons to stick to top-end gems and enchants.

*The primary argument for this is that while playing your mains or whatever you have leverage against idiots if they do 400 DpS. It takes 4 people to votekick someone, and if there's an idiot persuading some other idiot in your group to not votekick him in the light of the abovementioned argument, then you 3 sane persons of the runn will have to do a mental eyeroll and boost them (since the runs rarely take above 20 mins, even in 3-man).

*Economic reasons. It's a bad idea to make idiots think that they don't NEED that very very expensive enchant or gem. I'm not a very keen AH player but I know some of you are.

*Gameplay reasons. If no idiot is using that argumentation, maybe, maybe, MAYBE some will wake up, realise that they suck and read something. I don't hold high hopes for that, but if at least 10% of the M&S read something, Blizzard will kick up the difficulty of the game up just a notch. (Since there's going to be 10% less clueless people than before.) Which means more fun for us.

*Project execution reason. I expect a 5% or so power increase over 'blue' gems and enchants. The most will be gotten by melee classes with the availability of the Berzeking enchant.

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Re: Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

Post  Korghan on Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:26 pm

OMG HOW DARE YOU KICK ME FROM HERROIC UK FOR DOING 300 DpS?
Here it is. Here is the part that ruins all the argument. We won’t be doing 300 DPS. And I think it will once again Illustrate Gevlon’s rule that skill beats the gear.

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Re: Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

Post  Kats on Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:49 pm

You expect idiots to use common sense? Nah-uh. They'll show up in unenchanted and misgemmed blues to any instance and expect to do 3k dps, then whine on the forums when we get kicked, pointing fingers at us that 'OMG THEY DID IT I CAN DOO EET TOO IF ONLY PEOPLE WOULD GIVE ME THE CHANCE'.

I don't think that.

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Re: Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

Post  Korghan on Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:57 pm

There is also a counter-argument: get your chances at training dummy!

And in order to make all this quite obvious, we have to chronicle the whole project. Maybe even the leveling parts, like “how can one get 40 levels in a week of 4-hours / day playtime?” or “where do I get all this gold to powerlevel new professions and purchase gems / enchants once dinged 80?”…

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Re: Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

Post  Kats on Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Let's not kid ourselves. Skills > Gear is an overused meme and is not entirely accurate. Skills+Preparation > Gear is more closely to the truth.

No matter how skilled you are (and by skilled I define it by say a high IQ combined with very good fluid knowledges) it's not going to compensate for lack of experience.

IMO, if you, hypotetically, took Einstein and dropped him in a chess match against Kasparov, or in an arena match at 2500 rating, he'll lose quite a few games before getting the hang of it.

The comparison to chess is not incidental. PvE is chess. In order to win at chess, a person (as in a human) relies on experience and flair, rather than forethought and positional analysis (as opposed to computers for example).

Theorycraft is exactly that. Gives a person a priori knowledge, (almost like experience) without the actual fight.

IMO, and I think the majority of raiders agree that top-end enchants are not good because they are 'good'. They are good because they indicate the willingness of a person to go to outstanding lengths to give themselves an advantage against the game. If a person is willing to do that, then he is also willing to study encounters before actually fighting them, go to PTR to see them or what have you.

The other reason is that well, in order to figure out what gems and enchants are good for you, you have to go either experiment or read. Both of which are equally good in educating the masses.

Like I said, I did not propose this because I believe in some 'greater common good'. I Proposed it because if there's one or two idiots less in the world, then it's less of a chance I'll get the urge to take bites of my keyboard when reading the official forums or grouping with the new tool.

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Re: Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

Post  Misaka on Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:18 pm

Obviously any raider should be prepared for what he's supposed to be doing - either from experience or by watching videos, reading tactics, etc. So you can easily get preparation out of the equation, since every raider should be prepared in the same way.

Morons lack not only preparation, they lack basics. Melee dps standing on top of the tank on a cleaving trash mob? Check. People not moving from fire/voidzones/bluefire? Check. Getting cleaved/tailswiped by a dragon? Check. Hunters gemming strength and spellpower? Check.

It's not preparation. It's basics.

BTW you seem to assume that they will see that we have extra gems and enchants, and something in their heads will "click". It's a false assumption. You can't save people that require [Epic] for no-drake Sartharion 10-man.

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Re: Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

Post  Niola on Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:34 pm

The whole point is to serve as a model for idiots? I don't care how they justify their behaviour because I don't care about them. Gevlon picked the rules (blue gear, no epic gems, no top notch enchants) and he had a reason, I don't see the argument to change those rules being that we have to be a good inspiration for all the noobs running around in crap gear. I doubt they will even look at our gear, nor even read what we did, because the people that usually read wow blogs actually care a little bit about their characters and already know the basics.

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Re: Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

Post  Kats on Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:26 pm

Niola wrote:The whole point is to serve as a model for idiots? I don't care how they justify their behaviour because I don't care about them. Gevlon picked the rules (blue gear, no epic gems, no top notch enchants) and he had a reason, I don't see the argument to change those rules being that we have to be a good inspiration for all the noobs running around in crap gear. I doubt they will even look at our gear, nor even read what we did, because the people that usually read wow blogs actually care a little bit about their characters and already know the basics.

Preposterous. And here I was thinking that someone would read the original post to the bottom and its included reasoning. There's a difference between "wanting to set a good example" and 'not wanting to set a bad example, especially when the 'bad example' is a misconstructed strawman argument that will take root and be extremely hard to combat."

Rather than ranting against the noobs and how we shouldn't care about them, read the post to the bottom and comment on the punctual reasoning rather than making demagogue statements against an imaginary foe.

We will be models for idiots whether you like it or not. This is not something that can be argued about. (Or rather, it can, but the proof would come with a dose of "I told you so.").

Negative or positive inspiration is still a model, be it a negative or a positive model.

As for the infexibility of rules. Fine, I agree that it's his rules, but that doesn't mean they cannot be argued against. I thought this whole experiment was dispelling the conception of 'Leader says, we execute without question.'

Again, if you want to demolish my reasoning, attack the arguments I presented, not some imaginary made-up points I never made. That's borderline strawman argumentation and It's, frankly, idiotic.

I'm not trying to 'save' someone from anyone, or even try to make them 'click' or whatnot. I want people to not use stupid logic. Since people are especially creative at inventing stupid logic, I want an insurance that our reasoning is not misinterpreted by some cuckoo-brain that he can show up unenchanted and ungemmed to a raid (especially since that corelates with not reading tactics, basic common sense failures, and even as basic as not having a proper rotation or talent spec).

Stupid logic is again, the reason why raids are easy. Breaking stupid logic = the possibility to get properly designed encounters in the future.

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Re: Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

Post  gnomeofzurich on Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:58 pm

Kats wrote:
We will be models for idiots whether you like it or not. This is not something that can be argued about.

Idiots will misunderstand what we are doing, whether you like it or not, no matter what we do. After all, they are idiots.

I care what intelligent people will think about what we are doing. I care a little bit about what semi-intelligent people think about what we are doing and what they will read into it. I don't care about idiots, because it's largely impossible to make them think something smart. That's why we call them idiots.

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Re: Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

Post  Adam on Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:18 pm

Actually, I couldn't care less about what anybody thinks about it. Frankly, other peoples opinion has never entered into the equation for me.

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Re: Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

Post  Misaka on Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:13 pm

Kats wrote:I want people to not use stupid logic.

It's not really possible.

Since people are especially creative at inventing stupid logic, I want an insurance that our reasoning is not misinterpreted by some cuckoo-brain that he can show up unenchanted and ungemmed to a raid (especially since that corelates with not reading tactics, basic common sense failures, and even as basic as not having a proper rotation or talent spec).

It doesn't work like that. You can't have that kind of insurance with these kind of people.

They won't read either Gevlon's blog or our blog (because they are not the people to read anything extra), they will just hear about it from a friend - "you know, the game is sooo ez, some dudes beat it all in blue gear" - and that will be all. They won't look us up on armory to see if we have epic or blue quality gems.

The ones with a brain will. But we're not concerned about them, because, well, they have a brain.

Stupid logic is again, the reason why raids are easy. Breaking stupid logic = the possibility to get properly designed encounters in the future.

I'm having fun in Icecrown, I've had fun in Ulduar, and even sometimes in ToC. Both "fun" and "properly designed" are different for anyone, so it's stupid to use such generalisations.

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Re: Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

Post  Kats on Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:25 pm

Well then, that's that.

I still say that it's a good idea, but I understand the counter-arguments. Let's just see how it goes.

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Re: Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

Post  Crombach on Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:33 pm

Kats wrote:
*The primary argument for this is that while playing your mains or whatever you have leverage against idiots if they do 400 DpS. It takes 4 people to votekick someone, and if there's an idiot persuading some other idiot in your group to not votekick him in the light of the abovementioned argument, then you 3 sane persons of the runn will have to do a mental eyeroll and boost them (since the runs rarely take above 20 mins, even in 3-man).

Really, when these 300dps morons in 5mans really really really dont have any effect, why bothering with them? Kicking and searching and inviting costs more time than just getting the damn instance done. Plus: You wont probably need to pug since the guild is quite big.

Kats wrote:*Economic reasons. It's a bad idea to make idiots think that they don't NEED that very very expensive enchant or gem. I'm not a very keen AH player but I know some of you are.

Why should we 'care' about eachother?^^ Anyways, I think you overestimate the impact of this little adventure. Also it seems to be very simple to play the AH, time to raise the difficulty :-)

Kats wrote:*Gameplay reasons. If no idiot is using that argumentation, maybe, maybe, MAYBE some will wake up, realise that they suck and read something. I don't hold high hopes for that, but if at least 10% of the M&S read something, Blizzard will kick up the difficulty of the game up just a notch. (Since there's going to be 10% less clueless people than before.) Which means more fun for us.

Actually this project is about choosing yout own difficulty and this means that you don't need Blizz to set the difficulty for you. E.g. if it turns out that it is manageable to beat ICC25 in Blues start Ulduar HM's or downsize to greens etc. Or if it proves to be too difficult you can allow some epics ...

Kats wrote:*Project execution reason. I expect a 5% or so power increase over 'blue' gems and enchants. The most will be gotten by melee classes with the availability of the Berzeking enchant.

see answer above

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Re: Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

Post  Kats on Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:12 pm

Crombach wrote:
Kats wrote:
*The primary argument for this is that while playing your mains or whatever you have leverage against idiots if they do 400 DpS. It takes 4 people to votekick someone, and if there's an idiot persuading some other idiot in your group to not votekick him in the light of the abovementioned argument, then you 3 sane persons of the runn will have to do a mental eyeroll and boost them (since the runs rarely take above 20 mins, even in 3-man).

Really, when these 300dps morons in 5mans really really really dont have any effect, why bothering with them? Kicking and searching and inviting costs more time than just getting the damn instance done. Plus: You wont probably need to pug since the guild is quite big.

I don't need to PuG on Arathor. I will, most likely, have to PuG (or not, since I have a guild) on my main on Twilight's Hammer. It's not even the primary reason. It's kinda like this. Bads play. Bads whine. I ignore them. Blizzard doesn't. Blizzard caters to the bads. I suffer because Blizzard caters to them. Therefore, ignoring them and not speaking up hurts me. Or rather, I trade long-term challenge for short term comfort. I don't find this exactly fair.


Kats wrote:*Economic reasons. It's a bad idea to make idiots think that they don't NEED that very very expensive enchant or gem. I'm not a very keen AH player but I know some of you are.

Why should we 'care' about eachother?^^ Anyways, I think you overestimate the impact of this little adventure. Also it seems to be very simple to play the AH, time to raise the difficulty :-)

You mistake 'caring' for reasoning. Just because an argument does or does not benefit me (or others) directly is no reason to dismiss it, or even deny its existence. I would be making an informally fallacious argument then, and I hate informal fallacies in discussions.

It's true I may overestimate its impact, however. Though that's a 'butterfly effect' and can't be predicted with 100% certainty.


Kats wrote:*Gameplay reasons. If no idiot is using that argumentation, maybe, maybe, MAYBE some will wake up, realise that they suck and read something. I don't hold high hopes for that, but if at least 10% of the M&S read something, Blizzard will kick up the difficulty of the game up just a notch. (Since there's going to be 10% less clueless people than before.) Which means more fun for us.

Actually this project is about choosing yout own difficulty and this means that you don't need Blizz to set the difficulty for you. E.g. if it turns out that it is manageable to beat ICC25 in Blues start Ulduar HM's or downsize to greens etc. Or if it proves to be too difficult you can allow some epics ...

WoW is a social game. You can deny and rant about how that isn't so or so on, but I play WoW because I can beat the game either in cooperation with others, or competition with others. If I weren't interested in its social aspect I'd find a single-player game and beat that. In fact, as an empiric example, I have played several single-player CRPGs where I set challenges for myself to overcome. But that doesn't matter! What it matters is that I play WoW *now* and it doesn't logically make sense to me to play the game for its questionable single-player content when it's obvious to the most stone-hard anti-social that it's the appeal to more people that makes it so great.

Now, why I joined this project? Because there were 24 (hopefully) other players who wanted to join this challenge. Yes, yes, ape-follower subroutine and all that. Actually, no. It's because, I, as a single person in blue gear, I could not clear ANY raid content. So it requires 24 other people regardless of my personal intentions or opinions. See, on my main, my current challenge is getting as many Achievement points as possible. It's a challenge, regardless of one's opinion about them. Unfortunately, I'm pretty much out of challenges that I can accomplish alone. And I just can't find enough like-minded people on my server to go through the group ones. I *could* find something to do as a single-player personal challenge, but why would I do that on WoW? I have other games for that. This is why I'm interested in a 'group challenge' as opposed to a personal challenge.

Fortunately, 'group challenge' means that there's going to be more than one ideas or opinions floating about on what's challenging and what not. I voiced mine. I don't hold that it's 'right' or 'needed'. It's an opinion.

Now the reason is that it would be awesome to find such group projects all the time. Fact is, I don't reliably expect this will be the case for the time I expect I will play WoW. Therefore, in order to have fun in WoW by playing it as a social game, the difficulty of the 'mainsteam game' (ie. raiding) has to be at an level where it's going to be 'fun' for me. (Fuzzy logic here applies with a minimum treshold that I set at the very least, 'not boring') Small wonder than, if I want the difficulty of at least part of the game to be challenging. It's even better if I don't go asleep while tanking the daily heroic while I'm doing 3k DpS as a tank and 60% of the group damage.

All these are (hopefully) well argumented opinions and people are free to disagree, but that's why it's a discussion.

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Re: Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

Post  Gevlon on Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:28 pm

I fully agree that we are making an example. If we don't even hope for an impact, we shall not continue. I fully understand the risk that having sub-par gear, gems, enchants can make the impression that caring for gear is not needed and lazy idiots will say "lol im geared for icc look i has 5 epixxx [PvP] and 0 iz needed lol inv me or u r elitist fukks".

However there is a way of thinking behind this behavior. None of them call themselves "subpar". They call themselves casual. Despite I'm sure they have more /played than me, they are "casual". They don't have the time to get proper gear/enchants/gems. They believe that time = gear and since they have a rich social RL they don't have the chance to have better gear. Those with better gear simply "play more" (no-lifer) than them.

Quote from the forum you linked: "Elitism in this game is, to me, kids that play way to much and can't understand why not all can play as much as they do and therefore they take the opportunity to put someone else down. "

To defeat these idiots we have to raid in a casual setting.
- Newly created characters with no previous class experience
- Gear you can get easily from crafting, revered reps, dungeon drops.
- Enchants and gems you can get cheap

Of course most of us find that getting epic gems is easy, you walk to the AH and buy a full stack. However they also believe that gold needs no-life farming as they get their gold from grinding vendortrash or daily quests. The point is to fully play by their rules and beat them that way. To defeat the morons we have to prove that you don't have to grind emblems, rep, gold to do the content. We have to prove that any lvl 80 could do what we did... if he'd have the brain

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Re: Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

Post  Kats on Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:35 pm

I understand and hope you're right Gevlon.

I can only hope, because if I go by the empiric evidence available: ( http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12025293359&sid=1 , http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Aggramar&n=D%C3%A9%C3%A1thbr%C3%A9w ), I'd be a very very sad panda.

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Re: Epic Gems and Abyss-Requiring Enchants

Post  Gevlon on Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:06 pm

We won't save the world (of Warcraft). We can't make a single idiot be better. But if we can make some non-idiots to stop carrying idiots, we achieved something.

I also had my share of idiots. I was doing heroics to get blue gear (in blue gear of course). DK did half of my damage. I complained. They told: "he just has worse gear than you, don't be an ass". They didn't even bother to inspect me before telling that. After inspecting they were claiming that I just switched gear to "be mean".

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